WORK HARD PLAY HARD: Can you really find work life balance? Nigel Marsh (TED speaker & author)

Is your work life balance in check.

people say, the misunderstand my message is they go, oh, it's alright for you Nigel But I've got to earn a living and you go Tim Jeffrey and Marissa, haven't got to, they are worth together collectively one and a half billion dollars So they haven't got to get up at quarter to four. They haven't got to do 130 hours yet. They do. And we think they're clever I think they're a moron if I had a one and a half billion dollars, I'd be surfing. I mean, what are you doing it's, really insidious. So it's not about be a hippie nothing wrong with being a hippie, but being a hippie or being the CEO of apple. It's about normal people with normal jobs and families and lives. Not thinking they've got to be basically a modern day version of an Egyptian. slave

Is having work-life balance. Is it realistic? What does work-life balance even mean to me? These are likely questions. You have head running through your head. Welcome to season two of escape, the nine to five. I'm your host, Steve oily. I'm somebody just like you. I followed the traditional career path. Got a great qualification and was doing well on paper. And yet I was unhappy. The theme for this season is identifying where you are currently. And a big part of this is figuring out your own definition of work-life balance. You want a successful career. You want to earn good money, but you're also getting stressed out, not spending enough time with family and friends, barely any time for hobbies, let alone some exercise at the end of your Workday. Something's got to give. Who better to discuss work-life balance. Then with Nigel mash and advertising executive who lost his job with four young kids and decided to remain unemployed for a year to spend time with his family and figure out what work-life balance meant to him. He's also done a wildly popular Ted talk on worklife. Authored multiple books including fit 40 and fired has his own podcast. The five of my life, as well as speaking around the world about his experience, well, I joined the conversation with Nigel discussing how he went from a corporate career to in his own words, fit 40 and fired

Conventional career in the advertising industry. I had some small measure of success. So I was sent from UK to Australia to run the Australian companies, have an American malicious. so I was just on a, on a standard, you know, career ladder. I'm the CEO of a couple of agencies in Australia and, and long story short, I lost my job because they closed the company a year after I arrived in Australia. so I was, halfway around the world from where my friends and family were, and I'd never been to the Southern hemisphere before. I was 40, I was fat. I was alcoholic and I was. so it was, it's difficult to explain now because things have sort of worked out subsequently, but at the time, you know, not many people want a 40 year old unemployed advertising executive. I had four kids under the age of six, no friends or family in the country. So it was a pretty serious time. And, I made a, a decision, Which, you know, it depends. Is it irresponsible? Is it courageous? A bit of both who knows where I'm not going to just jump back into it, I'm going to try and change my life in every single way I've got no security, no money, no nothing, but I'm, I don't really like how this is panning out. I've been following the rules that other people have set that society has set and look where that's got me halfway around the world, unemployed, thrown down the scrappy. So I think. Yeah, it I'm going to sort some things out. And so that changed my life from that day on. I mean, and it wasn't all roses, you know? No, I, I, I took a year out of the corporate space and, gave up drink, lost weight, sorta some things out, but the things that were important to me at the center of my life, not leave them at the edge and ever since then have lived my life in a slightly unconventional different way.

And was it the getting fired?

That was the catalyst to do all that? Or was there already something bubbling away at The surface? yeah. That's interesting. That's a good question. Sleep because the truth is, I mean, I went to uni and I studied. Which is not the sort of thing you do if you, if you don't question life a little bit. so I'd always been, thinking about what's the point and is it all just about getting a BMW and renovating your house and, you know, is it just relentless consumption and whatever. but it's also true that if I hadn't lost my job, I wouldn't have done what I did. And that's a key part of the message that I have when I give I'm hard to get speeches about this around. Is for most people, it takes one of the big four death disease, divorce, or redundancy to make you do the proper reflection. And that was absolutely true for me. I was not clever enough to say, do you know what? I'm not? I don't like how my life is heading. I don't want to do another 10 years of this. So I'm going to change. I would have carried on if they hadn't closed the firm, I would have carried on and I'll be talking to you now. 6,000 heavier and not be already had a drink and probably be divorced or whatever. so part of the reason why I agreed to come on a podcast like this, or do a speech when I'm hard is if something that I say or something that I write can help just one other person do that reflection without one of the big four happened to them, then I'm happy. I'm happy book that it, you know, don't go through what I had to go through or don't get a cancer diagnosis. Let your husband or your wife walk out on you is, you know, maybe there are people out there who, who could benefit from just having a little thing, reflecting on their life.

You're not entirely happy in your job. And you know, you'd like to do something different, but there's a level of comfort. That's probably stopping you from doing anything about it. Inevitably. Everyone ends up having a crisis in their lives that forces them to reconsider their job and their purpose in life. Are you prepared to wait until one of the big four death disease,, divorce, or redundant? To make change. I asked Nigel how he thinks we can overcome that level of comfort. That stops us, making sure.

I mean, you need to be ready. It'd be like giving up drink. You need to be ready for the message. So you shouldn't impose on people, but if they are having those types of conversations is to get them to think about their funeral. You know, you, you look a lot like you're a young spring chicken. I mean, 32. Okay. So I find milestones quite important. when I was made redundant, I was 40, which is quite a useful age. But if you get to a certain age, you to meet mate, this is it. This is the life that you're living is it's different. If you're 21 and you're starting out in a career and starting out in life, you've got to scramble and whatever. but it gets to a stage where you go, this isn't a joke. We're all heading to a hole in the ground And when you are just on the edge of the grave, about to be pushed in and are you're going to say I'm really glad I made that extra sale. Or I got on the board or I was made a partner at the law firm and, and many people, the answer might be yes. And that's great was all my messages. And everyone's got to do what I do. It's about authenticity and honesty. Yeah. It's getting people to project to what would happen when they look back. So my guest Bronnie, where she was, was a hospice nurse. She would talk to people on their death beds. And so what do you regret? And all of the men without exception said, I wish I hadn't worked so hard without. So they're not, they're not joking or trying to be funny. They're on their deathbed in a hospice and Bronny where it is saying, what do you regret? And they mentioned, you know, a number of things, but all of the men say, I wish I hadn't put things that are important behind work. And that doesn't mean we haven't got to work hard and pay the bills and be ambitious, but having a successful career that leads to a lonely, old age full of regret is more.

Yeah

I understand why people fall into it, but it's not the way. And it's too late. When people write to me, I've had 30,000 emails, people writing to me it, when they say, you know, I'm 70 Nigel, I don't know the names of any of my children's friends. I've been divorced twice. You know, what was it all for? It's quite hard to know what to do. But I'm talking to you and you look very nice and you're 32 and you go, well, mate, you've got your whole life ahead of you. That's great. And that doesn't mean if, if you want to be the richest bloke in New Zealand and work really, really hard, and you may have that thought, we'd knock yourself out as long as that's what you actually want to do. But now to start having those thoughts is a good thing. Not a bad thing, just to think about how is my life going to pan out because the truth, Steve is. Outside of yourself. People don't care about you and that shouldn't be surprised. That's not horrible. The government doesn't wake up saying, how are we going to make Steve's life meaningful that you want to be from? Doesn't it. It's, it's your job to design how you want to fill. If you're lucky you've got 60 summers left and it's up to you to decide how you're gonna fill em If you leave it to your employer or the church or the government and forget it. And not because they're nasty, but know, it's personal responsibility.

but even for young people like I was literally in a car crash, a month ago and someone ran a red light and if that hit me in the driver's door, I'd probably be in a wheelchair, but I just got lucky and they clipped the top of the vehicle. so it can happen to anyone. And you'd hope that people, if they're unhappy would be considering. things in the younger age not when they're 70.

Yes. I, I think, it's a fine balance. And what you, don't what I'm very, very keen not to do is be to kumbaya. tree huggy, and let people think that life isn't full of challenges and hard work. And we had to do lots of things we don't want to do, and you've got to be patient and all that stuff, you know, there's this, there's sort of people having a midlife crisis at 19 and not what, you know, toughen up, you know, cupcake. He, you know, life is hard. but to think about, and I talk about category norms. So if you are. Right. So if you hate animals, you probably shouldn't choose to be a vet. If you are scared of blood, you should probably shouldn't be a surgeon. If you hate Heights, you shouldn't be a pilot. If you detest children, you probably shouldn't be a teacher, right. There are certain jobs and categories of profession in life that are inevitably going to lead to a certain life. 'cause you can't get around. If you're a currency trader in New York, you're going to get shouted at, and it's high stress and nothing wrong with that. But if you don't like being shouted at and high stress, you shouldn't be a currency trader in New York. So rather than be moronically unrealistic and say, I want to be a vet, but I never want to meet an animal. You go, well, that's the job mate. You're going to be meeting lots of animals, right? Is don't go into high stress, high pressured industry. Whose entire point is working really, really hard and being really, really competitive, making lots and lots of money and, you know, blah, blah, blah, and squeezing as much out and usually can, if you don't like that type of stuff, I don't know what my message is. I think you can be successful. You can be wealthy, you can do a whole host of things and still have balance and meaning in your life. But you have to be realistic. If you're a long distance truck driver, you're not going to be home for kids T Yup. the reflection as a young person is slightly different to a reflection that as me as an, as an older, so I've sort of done my dash, but to choose mindfully the way that you might make a living is a really, really good thing to do. But the questions and the issue of work-life balance, one of the things I rail against is the morons that think there is one answer that your answer is that is right for me, or mine is right for you. I would never. It's it's a, it's an internal thing, but also the thinking that there's a set and forget answer. So you're building a family and you're a vet. So you're going to have to be, I'd imagine running around doing a whole bunch of stuff, but when you're 69 and, and your kids have left home and you've retired, you might have a different set of stuff. So it's, it's, you gotta be flexible and mindful. It's not about, this is not, I know the protocol, not the nine to five, but I mean, with respect for some people nine to five,

What Nigel is saying here is you've got to do what works for you. I never started escape the nine to five with the intention to give a prescription, which would work for everyone. Not everyone necessarily needs to quit their corporate job and become a tree hugging hippie who lives in the forest and works 12 hours a week, find a work-life balance that works for you being made redundant forced night, or to reflect on his life. And he chose to take close to a year off a huge financial. But what the year off allowed him to do was prioritize his family and also realize he enjoyed working as an advertising executive. Just not to the point of being overworked and not seeing his family, His book fed 40 and flood is genuinely one of the funniest books I have ever read. And also goes into more detail about what you can learn from his year off. I joined Nigel back asking what his career looks like now.

I mean the money ran out, so I had to make it make a living. And what actually happened was I went straight back into the same industry is the truth. So, so don't, don't do what I do. Crashing hypocrite. I had a year off money ran out and somebody else. Basically exactly the same job with exactly the same, you know, demands.

was very disappointed when I read that part of the book

And that's part of the reason why it's been a best seller around it still sells well, whatever it is, 15 years later, because it it's obviously true. It's not an, I became a shepherd in RTI, clever. I went back and what I actually did, which was really useful learning, Steve is I went back into that world thinking that I could do. But be the only advertising agency, CEO in history that picked his kids up from school that, you know, and so that's part of why I feel I've got a valid voice is I'm not just making this stuff up. I'm talking from personal experience. I've tried to do the moronic, ignore the category norm and trust me, it doesn't work me. I was, I was less balanced after my year off. Because I had high standards and I just wasn't, you know, it was a disaster. But to answer your, the spirit of your question is what's my career. Now I do five different things. So I'm a writer I've just finished my fourth book for penguin. I'm a podcaster. I do a podcast called the fight for my life. I'm a coach. I coach people personally and professionally, I'm a consultant. I've got my own management consultancy and, and I'm a speaker. I get hired to do speeches. So it's five things and. In in my life. I'm not saying it's right for other people, but I'm in charge of my life. I mean, I still got to work to learn to earn money, but it enables me to be flexible. And part of my message within the Ted speech that I think you mentioned you'd seen is it's for me, it's not about a day. Routine. And it's really important. I think the lots of don't chase a daily routine or Nigel. Tell me, should I get up at six o'clock or five o'clock? Should I do yoga or Pilates? I didn't give her the don't. Do any of that? Get up at half past 10. I mean, it makes no difference what works for you is for me, I will be have periods of intense busy-ness because I choose to, if I've got to do 80,000 words for penguin and I've got three speeches and I've got to interview six people from my podcasts, now that they're very, very. And I'm incredibly happy about that because I don't hold myself to a daily routine. And guess what? The next week I might do. Absolutely no work, stay in bed or go surfing

Nigel is a naturally funny man. And you get a taste of it in our conversation. He mentioned his Ted talk a few times. And so here's a little taster.

Up until that moment, I had been that classic corporate warrior. I was eating too much. I was drinking too much. I was working too hard and I was neglecting my family and I decided that I would try and turn my life around. In particular. I decided I would try to address the thorny issue of work-life balance. So I stepped back from the workforce and I spent a year at home with my wife and four young. But all I learned about work-life balance from that year was that I found it quite easy to balance work and life when I didn't have any work, not a very useful skill, especially when the, when the money runs out.

I joined Nigel back discussing what his year off taught him.

So two things, what, I mean, I want you to put the. And people that I loved at the center of my life, not at the age. And it taught me that that was the right decision. the second thing it taught me really importantly, was it app to me it's just desperately important learning. I'd love to tell to other people. So you get to it sort of at a level, without being pretentious of enlightenment, you go, I want my life to be a certain light. Now you can get to that level of enlightenment and say, so what's, who's your prime minister. What's the other doing about it? Well, nothing, you know, what's, what's the veterinary association, New Zealand doing about it. Nothing, you know, nor should they, nor will they, you know, if, if, if you've got a drink problem, you can't pass laws to stop you having a drink problem. You got to sort it out yourself. And what it taught me. It's entirely fair. Goldman Sachs wants to make lots of money, whatever, the big firms in New Zealand that they they're designed, you know, dogs sniff other dogs, backsides, you know, That's what they do. And if you don't like that, you think it's a bit rude. Don't have a dog, right. That's what they do. So the government capitalism Sharemarket blah, blah, blah. They can all try and be nice. And again, in my Ted speech, I said about, you know, dress down Friday. I know that crack and, and all those things are fine on the top, but it's not. It's not the nub of the problem. Again, if you've got a drink problem and, and people close the pub, when you walk past or they hide the drink and it might help you a little bit, but there's a real issue for you to solve you, Steve, you alone to solve. So the second most important learning of the year off was actually, I got to sort this out, to pretend to that a multinational advertising network is going to sit down and reorganize its business so I can get home for kids. It is his infant time. You've got to, recognize and be honest, the nature. I did a, um, a speech for horse vets in America. And, and one of the things they've got is, you know, horses are big, so you don't bring into the surgery. You've got to go do other horses. And if you get a call at three in the morning, and the horse is 20 miles away, you, you can't say, come and see. Nine 30, you know? So that's the nature of being a horse vet. You can't expect horses to be smaller or, you know, so it it's up to you to, to sort it out.

He's mentioned this a couple of times, so I'm going to repeat it here. If your job does not fit with your intended lifestyle, you should not be doing that job. Don't expect the job description to magically change the hours of work to suddenly reduce and your employer to stop focusing on money. It will not change. You have to take personal responsibility for your life. And if this doesn't match up with your job, you're doing you're in the wrong job and the wrong profession, I asked Nigel what he thinks about anyone taking a year off work

I got interviewed. It was actually in Detroit. Yeah. I was, launching a book over there and they said, so, Nigel, I mean, they don't have it clearly the white walls and you know, so Nigel, do you know, why do you recommend that an unemployed car worker should take a year off? I don't. I, I don't. And that was like the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I advise an unemployed car worker to get another job very, very quickly. Elsie's children will staff. So my, my books that I write are humorous autobiographies. Now, I mean, you can take things from them. I hope, but they're not look at me. I'm so clever. Do what I did. That's just what happened to me. So in certain situations it might be a good thing to do in other situations, hugely stupid. You haven't, I mean, how are you going to earn them? How are you going to earn a living? I was lucky enough that I'd had a mildly successful advertising career, so I could basically spend all my savings not earn. but because some people, I would say the very worst thing to do is take a year off. That's not, it's not my message. I just like, I mean, hilarious. It usually in America I give speeches and I stand up and I say, I'm not here to talk about time management and they go, but we've just paid you quite a lot of money to talk to us about no, no, no, you, you paid me to talk about work, life balance. And I view work life balance is how to live a meaningful life, not how to spend equal amount of times on the golf course in India. And if I could make you do your job two hour quicker a day, you just do two hours more work, you idiot. Right? So it, many of the people that talk about, look, I'm slightly Maverick and I don't care because this is not how I make my living. I'm just doing this out of love, talk rubbish. I mean, some of them talk rubbish so they can make money. Others of them talk rubbish because they're idiots that, you know, well-intentioned idiots giving really bad advice to vulnerable. So there you go. I'm sorry. I've come off, come off. The fence is people talk bloody crap about work-life balance and they shouldn't because it's important. It's about living a life that's meaningful. There are no off the shelf answers and it's, you know, there's morons in the magazines that crap on about their yoga and Palo Alto. He's in smoothies. And I mean, it's just, if it works for them yeah. Your heart, but if you're giving other people advice. There's proper advice that they, you know, do the reflection and think about what you in your life. Your family may have completely different, objectives and hopes and dreams and fears than someone else. Not, not, maybe you will have, you know, and if you want to be at the center of the finance industry where you bloody well, shouldn't be living in. If you want a rural lifestyle, you shouldn't be living in the center of London, so gotta sit down and think properly about this. It's not some off path. I hiked the G I E on LinkedIn, you get this, this moronic be a corporate athlete, bullshit. It's all about productivity. And there's people that talk about it's really important that you take your holiday, Steve, because then you'll be refreshed and better at work as if the point of the holiday is to make you better at work rather than the point of the work is to fund you having a holiday. It's just a completely.

Oh, I could go on a whole spiel on LinkedIn but anyway, on the subject of work-life balance, one of my favorite parts of your Ted talk is, and we'll play this in the podcast is when you talk about your perfect day,

Before I went back to work. After my year at home, I sat down and I wrote out a detailed step-by-step description of the ideal balanced day that I aspired to. And it went like this wake up. Well, rested offer. Good nights. Have sex walk. The dog have breakfast with my wife and children have sex. Again. Drive the kids to school on the way to the office. Do three hours work, play sport with a friend at lunchtime. Do another three hours. Work, meet some mates in the pub for an early evening. Drive home for dinner with my wife and kids, meditate for half an hour, have sex, walk the dog, have sex again, go to bed. How often do you think I had that day? We need to be realistic.

But then you go on to say that you can have it all in one day, but you don't want to wait until you retire to, to have that balance. So what do you suggest as the middle.

Oh, that's a good question. I mean, it's hilarious that, that, that, that, I mean, I'm obviously joking when I did that bit, that you're gonna play. And, uh, and I, I get people, I mean, I've had, as I said, 30,000 emails and some of them are, oh, you know, poor old Nigel's wife, all that second ago, the whole point was to set up an unrealistic day, not something to say, I'm being serious. You got to come on guys. All right. So. Th th the balance for me, I'm just talking about the balance of the timeframe on which you judge yourself. And it's a really important, because a daily unit is the wrong timeframe. Even you, you might have, I don't know, like a vet in New Zealand, but you might have a series of disasters, which means that you have to do a 21 hour day. And so you bloody should because the poor old cat and dog are dying. but that doesn't mean that you'll be out of balance. It means you had a really, really busy weekend when all these things happened. So what happens is to make it realistic and flexible, because oh you don't understand how hard it is to be a doctor or a lawyer or a vet. So I can't, you know, have to do long days sometimes is they then just push it out until retirement, which means well then you're not addressing the issue. So to answer your question, I use a month now. I'm not saying that other people should use a month, but that's what I use

I'm expecting a prescription here, Nigel and writing it all down,

a month is long enough to be flexible, but it's also short enough to not allow you to live in delusional denial. So just pretend I sit down and I go, it's really important to me that I, I don't know. I spent lots of time with my mother and I, engage in my hobby of fly fishing. Yeah. So that that's, that's what got me. I'm just making us do things up. And then I look back at the end of the month. That's just end in November and go. How many times have you spoken to, or seen your mother? None. How many times have you been fly fishing? None. When you get up night, it's not because you had a busy day or a busy weekend. And w you say these things are important to you. It's been four weeks. You've done fuckers. Who's my language. Therefore, you know, get wise to yourself. But if you said that. On a daily or a weekly basis, you could say, you know, Steve, you're not being realistic. You just had a busy day and grow up the Auburn monks. I think it's a useful, check-in the things that you think are important to you when you say they're important to you, maybe we haven't done it for the last 30 days. So are the change the things that are important or raise your game. And that might mean saying no, it might mean, earning less money. It might mean changing your career, If you haven't done something that you say is really important to you for a month, it could be a very good reason, but if there's, if another month goes and then another month, and I say, well, mate, this is three months and you haven't called your mother. So get wise to yourself.

Yeah. It's pretty good advice. and as you say, it's not a prescription for everyone, but like having a long enough timeframe that people can actually cause I'm sure that it would be. Types of work where they'd be really busy during the peak time of the year, but it doesn't necessarily mean they have no work-life balance. It just means at that time They do. So maybe for those people that need it extended out a bit more But I do agree with that long timeframe thing where you can't judge, just because he had one stressful, busy, long day, doesn't mean that you don't have work-life balance.

That's right. And I've got friends who work running. So we'll have an incredibly busy three months because that's, you know, annual festivals, the film felt Sydney film festival or whatever else, but what can happen. And I'm sure you've got friends and colleagues that do this, where they have a, a life that justifiably makes them very, very, very busy at certain times. But then that becomes their default habitual mode and they don't realize they're in it. They're always worn running around with their hair on fire. So when the festival is over or whatever, They're still like that. They don't go on. Now's my downtime. I'm now that's the point I was saying about, if I can make you do your job two hours quicker, you just do two hours more appointments. Well, what's the point, we live in a society that glorifies busy-ness and overwork And you hear people going, oh, Amanda's amazing. She works every weekend. She never takes her holidays. No Amanda's a moron who needs some help. it's, sad. And we shouldn't say, that's wonderful. And I see people in positions of power and influence crapping on about how hard they work. you have to be careful because you don't want to be smug, but there's a responsibility. Success isn't going ever faster, being ever. busier I'm not the right spokesperson. I've got perfect balance, mate. That doesn't mean I'm got a perfect life. I had got perfect balance. I get stressed. I get busy, but I have perfect fucking bands. And I'm really happy about that. People say to me now you're busy night. You go to the, to the extent that I'd like to be now that they want you to say no, really busy, my hair's on fire. I'm actually not at all. I'm I'm, I'm I'm doing exactly what I want to be doing. I'm talking to you today. I've got to prepare for an interview. I'm doing myself tomorrow. I'm going out tonight with mates. That doesn't feel right. Why are you saying that Nigel? Why don't you pretend to Steve on his podcast that you've got 17 conversations with New York and Brazil, and you're really, really busy. Cause that's what people want to hear. And I go, well, that's rubbish. I've got twin daughters. All right. Mr. Sebas school, was famous for being on the, in the newspaper, breastfeeding her second child eight hours after it was born at her desk, because she was sending an example to the children of the school. That is a girl's school that you can have. And you go, oh my, there you go. Right. There is the problem right there. If you were the geography teacher at that school, a female drama teacher, and you thinking of starting a family, you go blind me. And I was hoping to have a few weeks, months, years off clearly at this place, I've got to be back at work within 24 hours. And I was appalled and, and took the kids out the school, but it is there. That's held up as a horrible. You know, super, super woman having an all. And it's just all, it's just a language is it's Marissa Mayer. The lady who's the CEO of Yahoo. She used to boast in interviews that she did 130 hour weeks, which always used to make me laugh. Because if you work to five day, week that's 26 hour days, and Jeffrey Immelt who was the CEO of GE said he worked a hundred hour weeks for 24 years in a row straight Tim cook who is the CEO of apple. he starts his working day at 3.45 and when I first heard that, I thought, oh, that's quite good. that gives me time to surf in the morning No 3.45 in the morning, Nigel what people say, the misunderstand my message is they go, oh, it's alright for you Nigel But I've got to earn a living and you go Tim Jeffrey and Marissa, haven't got to, they are worth together collectively one and a half billion dollars So they haven't got to get up at quarter to four. They haven't got to do 130 hours yet. They do. And we think they're clever I think they're a moron if I had a one and a half billion dollars, I'd be surfing. I mean, what are you doing it's, really insidious. So it's not about be a hippie nothing wrong with being a hippie, but being a hippie or being the CEO of apple. It's about normal people with normal jobs and families and lives. Not thinking they've got to be basically a modern day version of an Egyptian. slave That's what the, that's the answer 3000 years of evolution. And I want you to work your cock off until you die miserably I just refuse to buy into it. You set those rules

and the research shows that after about 30 hours your productivity drops and I meet people now that say, oh, you know, I do three jobs and I'm on this committee and I'm up till three in the morning and get three hours sleep. Like they are a hero and they look extremely tired. And I don't think it's anything. I don't even give them the time of day. I'm not like, oh, well, you're amazing. I just sort of like acknowledge it and move on. But you're right It's moronic like a Tim cook has Jarvis to make big decisions with a fresh mind. So he should be working 30 hours a week and delegating all the other tasks to his employees.

you know, there are exceptions in this world, whether it is Elon Musk or Tim cook or whatever else. My message is to, I hate using the word ordinary, but normal ordinary people who aren't going to invent a life globe, changing thing. You go, what are we saying to your children? And my children is the future of their working life. What do they got to look forward to when they leave? Is it 50 years of drudgery and misery being whipped and having nothing to I'd like to have a life where we all contribute and there's joy and there's, whatever else, not this notion that it's about working really, really hard for shareholder value market capital. I couldn't care less about them. That doesn't mean they don't have a place, but it's like it's out of balance. Does that make, that makes sense completely for Tim cook, he should do whatever he wants to do, but you're totally right. Wouldn't it be amazing? Wouldn't it be amazing if he said, well, I'm, I'm on top of this amazing firm, which enables me not to get up at quarter to four in the morning.

this is pretty much the heart of what this podcast is trying to solve. How do we change this modern capitalistic society to enable us to live more meaningful lives?

I can't believe I said that. That sounds quite sensible. well you, you don't use, this is the short. And I know that's not what you want to hear, but is I think how you approach that is you don't take the world's problems on your own shelters. You sought out your life. And if enough people sought out their life, then the world war. You don't do it. It's like waking up going, what can I do about climate change? Well, you know, recycle and don't have a horrible car, but you, it's not up to you unless you run the Chinese economy or the American economy to do it. So to think that you're going to change the free world's commercial capitalist structure, ain't going to happen. If you think you're going to make Goldman Sachs or the local bank, you know, want to make slightly less money. Yeah. Now on one level, you always not depressing. There's not depressing. As I said to my Ted speech, that the way of solving a problem is being honest about the situation you're actually in. It is not sensible to expect. Publicly quoted company on the stock market do not want to whip its employees as much as it can get away with as much as they'll pretend that, you know, they'll have HR managers or whatever, mental health studies, but they're there, they're designed to make a profit and that's fine. We live in a free world. I don't want to live in Stalinist Russia. So you, you turn the telescope around and look at what you can do. And so, I mean, I had a successful, enjoyable career in that. That was fine, if I knew what I know now, then when I was starting, I think I probably could have had a very enjoyable career in advertising because I would be in charge of it, but not expect the firm to beat, you know, but when you've get to get enough money as a banker, I mean, you're at bonfire, the vanities. it was just a story about a banker. He goes into a hedge fund or whatever. And with his wife, he's agreed when we get enough money, then we'll, you know, we'll retire. You know, I'm not in this for life. I'm just getting in it to make the first million and then we'll buy a nice country house and we can be the people we want to be. But of course it's a, it's a receding. You get 1 billion you think we actually probably need to. And then I would actually probably need three. I probably need a week. I actually got one house, but we need a holiday. And it's up to you. my life. I mean, I'm not in any way grinding. I live in a nice suburb of Sydney, but, there are consequences to how I live my life. That I'm very happy with that. There are people who've had my type of career. Dramatically more than and I'm happy for them. That's that's, you know, I haven't got a holiday house or Yelp or a play, you know what I mean? I'm not saying that's normal, but as I haven't got any of those things, cause I've made the decision. It's not about maximizing that the philosophy of more, more, faster, faster, you can engage in a capitalist society on your terms, but you've also got to live with a contract. Back to the American horse vets They were lovely people. And they were saying, what can I do about the fact that the, these, these are call outs and they happen in the middle of the night. And how can I have work-life balance? Because I've never seen a situation that can't be improved ever. I've never seen a situation that can't be improved And so I said to this one, person okay well you could share your practice So, so so Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you're on call and Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, he's on call. And that would mean. that you At least have three nights sleep a week as example. And he said lovely bloke, but that means I'd earn less money. And I mean Yeah Bigger. pause Yes, it would, oh, you want away where you could work less hard and make exactly, but that's not how it works. You've got to so things that you value in life cost. So having a meaningful, now I admire people, not who say they're really, really busy and they got billions, but I've got smile on their face. They are connected with their community and their family, and they seem to be comfortable in their own skin. That's what I enjoy. And now the reality is those probably aren't the richest people. I know

And the people that chase, financial wealth. they believe now that half of our success is actually a social capital, which of course you can't measure in terms of dollars, I can think of a guy on our street Who's like the most social man in the world And he's got a modest career but he knows everyone He's a local in the communities involved in the rugby club, just a real good bastard And what more could you want in your life,

who, who is winning. So that guy, but at the same time, it shouldn't be used as, an excuse for failure for mediocrity, for irresponsibility. And so it's, you know, many of the people who talk about it are the wrong poster children, and some ways. Part of the reason why I get hired to do as many speeches as I do is, is the thing that you alluded to earlier is because I've had a successful corporate career because I used to run a firm with 1200 employees and 30 out of it. You know, it's not, again, I'm not the local beekeeper, nothing wrong with the beacon. I wish I were, but it's not someone that doesn't understand that stuff. And, and so. Mind model, but the Joyce is, is the bloke that you've described. He sounds fantastic. That that's that's way, but not if he is a burden to the community and society, because he's bloody workshop and he's on benefits and he doesn't, you know, you've got to, you know, we've all got responsibilities, but we've just got it's. So out of whack, how many, how many houses do you need? How many bedrooms do you need? How many cars do you need? So there comes a time where. What are you struggling for? It's it's normal at the start of the career for the main motivation to be, I've got to pay for my family and look after And that if you're lucky enough, which many people aren't and which guys I say, keep on grinding. I mean, that's, that's, that's what you have to do. there comes a time in some people's lives. You go, you know what? I might not need. Everyone else might be going for more, but I might not need more. I mean, I'm wearing a t-shirt and it's not prouder it's it's from the swim that I run So it, again, it comes down to personal choice, but podcasts like yours help because it may legitimize people making a different choice to I'm going to be the richest, most busy person. Yeah. if that's what they want to do fine. But it's also to legitimize people. It's I feel really sorry for some women who, are made to feel bad because they'd actually quite like to bring their kids up. yeah. And you go that's completely fine. Now, if, she wanted to outsource them to a nanny and go off a be a you know, I don't know a corporate lawyer. who never saw them. That's also fine But if she doesn't, she actually wants to stay at home and bring them up. That's no worse than being a massive success in business and earning lots of money. I mean, why would it be yet? I know other women making women who make that choice feel bad, feel lesser How have we got to that stage? What could be more important, more enjoyable, than bringing up a kid it was just, a little bit out of whack. We need to redress the balance. You know, you're very clever with your push and your big house and your holiday house well done. but you know, you've had, you've got enough attention. I'm actually quite interested in Steve's mate who lives across the road. He's part of the rugby club. And now as to his wife and his kids like him coming in for tea without forcing people to do anything, it's just making people think.

Just to go on a bit of a sidebar there on that comment you know, raising the kids. I think feminists are getting it wrong if they think that the success of feminism is for every second woman to be a CEO. If anything, we should be valuing motherhood more Remembering that this sort of like male capitalistic society that we've created isn't working So why would Every female. One to aspire to be a CEO.

Yeah. Well, so I think so you got, you've gotta be careful because it's, for me, it's about, exploding choice. So women had every choice in the world, but what some commentators do and they don't even know they're doing it is they say that therefore women, but really what they actually mean, unwittingly is I'm for women like me who make my choices. Now there's a place for that because centuries of imbalance have to be addressed, but you're absolutely right. For me. It's about take gender out of it. Human should have all the choices available to my daughters who have as much choices as my sons, but if they choose to do something that doesn't fit into a modern striding shoulder, pads suited New York banker model. Well, that's also a choice. You are allowed to be a stay at home. Mum. You're allowed to be a, not at home mom, right? Some commentators are limiting. It's just a different set of impositions upon women. It should be exploding. The options you've now got the option to do everything. Not I'm changing the things that I'm telling you to do. So in the past, if you're a 1950s housewife in America, you have no choice now, potentially in 2022 in New Zealand, you have to go to work eight hours after you've given birth and pretend that you don't want to stay at home and you go without, how was that helpful?

The theme for this season is identify where you are. Currently. I asked Nigel how we can identify where we are carrying. Before making any big decisions.

The first thing is you need it to be a private practice. You don't tell anyone else you don't show it to anyone else. You know that you're not going to show it to him nails. And the reason I say that is because then it takes out any am I allowed to think these things is this good enough? Don't go and talk to your therapist or your best girlfriends or whatever. Don't sit down, give yourself you only need an hour no more than an hour. Get yourself quiet time where you could honestly do it without fear or favor. So you can actually say actually, I just want to be the richest person of my friends. You got that. That's what actually, but you know, you could admit things that aren't very palatable or you can say, do you know what I really hate work? It's bloody stupid in the office. I didn't want to bring up my kids. It doesn't make it a private thing. And then sit down the second thing. So three tips versus make it private. Second is there's, there's four parts to a human life. I think intellectual, physical, emotional, spiritual that is sit down and think of it in this. What type of person do I want to be? What type of life do I want to lead? And what type of legacy do I want to leave? Ask yourself those three questions and write it down. Right. Then ask completely different question. It comes back to the month thing. So I've written down what type of person I want to be in life and legacy now, honestly. And it's private. No, one's going to see what type of person am I. What type of person, possibly life am I leading? And what type of legacy will I leave if I carry on like this? Honestly. So, so the first one could be, I want to be really, really fit to what am I B and then I never do an exercise. Just so write down the two separate things and then identify if there is a gap. So you say you want to be these things. I don't know a good father, a good husband part of your community, whatever it might be. And then when you get to the second one, The actual life you're leading. Is there any relation between the two? Right. So if you've done it privately because they blind me on, I think I'm full of shit because I've said all these things. I don't help anyone. You know, those students it's really, really helpful. I'd like to be the type of person at my funeral that they say, blah, blah, blah. And currently, if I die, they wouldn't say any of those things. I don't do any of those things. Right? So write those two lists down. The third thing is then you have identified any gap or gaps that might exist between the two lists. And this is the whole thing, Steve. Then you sit down and you think, am I going to do anything about And. It's your life. You can decide. No, I'm not. It's too hard or I'm too stupid, or I didn't really mean what I said, but if, just pretend you go, I really, really, really want to, I don't know, live in the country and grow my own vegetables and you go up, I live in the center of New York and I'm 40. You go, well, then move. Right. So is it, so my mantra is, decide, don't say. So, I don't know you, I don't know what's important in your life, but you'll have things. And if you've done your reflection, they look down and go, am I doing anything? That's, you know, I really want to go to the Olympics to win the a hundred meter final, but I never go running. Are you able to, then, then you're a moral you used to sit down and have a think. Now many people find it quite hard, cause it's easy to know what you want to run away from. It's less easy to know what you want to run away to. And that's the subject of a different podcast. And, you know, that's what I get hired to do speeches, but, but, you know, reflection is the first thing. And then to build actually a meaningful, realistic way of, well, how can I construct this life?

I was going to sort of finish things up but I did just want to mention one thing on that topic. And I know friends who are in this position as people know, they're not happy in their current existence and they can see what the thing is that they have to aim for kind of like what you've suggested. But I think the thing that holds people back the most is the fear of change. Even if. Positive change People were so scared of change that they convinced themselves, Oh actually hang on my jobs All right yeah I'll just kind of keep doing it and then sort of already think about it in a few years time. Would you have any advice as to how to get them to break that without having those four. And what did you call them? The four,

yeah, the big four death disease. Divorce redundancy. Yeah, I have, I mean, again, every situation is individual and different, but my advice when I meet people who say those types of things and it's very specific and it's based on my personal experience in those 30,000 emails that I've is starts. Okay. So you think you're on your you're dissatisfied with your career, your job, your life, whatever. And you want to change things, but it's a little bit hard and you go, that's fine. That's absolutely fine, mate. We're not going to change anything. We're going to have a year where you carry on doing exactly what you're doing. However, what we're going to do is every month, you're going to add one small thing in one small thing. Yeah. And it could be for me, I'm going to turn my mobile phone off at 10 o'clock at night. And then that might sound not much, but trust me if you're the CEO of an ad agency, but you can add one thing in that's going to improve your life in the direction. You want to be very small. I'm going to pick up my kids once a fortnight from school, you go blind. It's not much. You don't have to do, take it really slow. So no one could argue with Okay. You're going to do that one thing for about one month and you're going to keep. Now, what you'll find is the world doesn't fall to pieces. Nigel turns his phone off at 10 o'clock or pictures. Get up from school once nothing doesn't not happen apart from my life gets slightly better. So we're going to keep that one improvement. And the next month we're going to add another one in and the next month, another. And then when you and I come and talk in a year's time, have a different.

So you're knocking off a three o'clock to go to the pub but by the end of the year.

That's right. But you, that is amazing people underestimate what they can achieve. over the long time, it was with small consistently applied changes. I understand why people don't want to kick in their job and sell their house and go and live in a cave. work life balance. Isn't about the grand gesture. I mean, it might work for some people, but it's, it's completely responsible to saying to somebody may, you've got a bit of a soulless corporate job. You don't like how your life is. So kick it all in and go and leave it, you know, on the side of a lake and you go, how's that gonna work? You know, there's there's, this is a grownup adult conversation rather than a, an infant tile babyish one. Yeah. So it, you know, Reflective. If you can't make, a big sense of a decision lightly, I'm going to move to the country. I'm going to change professions wherever it might be. Don't worry. There's hope don't give into the philosophy of despair. What we're going to do is we're going to sign up to a program as small incremental changes that we're going to keep, and we're going to add to, and although you'll still be a, an accountant or whatever it is that making you miserable, you'll be a happier and a captain.

That was Nigel marsh. He's one of those people who has somehow managed to master a level of work-life balance to suit him. And also in the process has supportive a family of four kids had a successful advertising. Featured in a wildly popular Ted talk, authored three books, including fit 40 and fired fit 50 and fired up and overworked and underlaid. Finally, he has his own podcast, which he wanted to mention himself.

It's called the five of my life. I interviewed. For want of a better word, famous people, prime ministers, Olympic champions, but also, you know, people that you haven't heard of. and I get them to tell me their favorite film book, song, place, possession, and the point behind it. Isn't because I'm interested in those things, which I am to an extent, it's the stories behind them. So if anyone was to check it out, the five of my life on, on all the usual iTunes, Spotify, whatever.

You can find out more about nigel@nigelmarsh.com well, check out his podcast. The five of. Nigel was oozing with good advice, three tips worth taking home from Nigel today. One spread out the timeframe by what you consider work-life balance. Don't aim for the perfect day aim for a balanced week or a balanced month. So you might work hard at the start of the week, but then balance it out with a day off. Like I do, or have a cruisy schedule later in the. Too. Don't take the world's problems on your own shoulders. I see this from so many of my friends. They don't quit their jobs because they think they owe it to society to fix problems that society has created. You sought out your life. And if enough people sought out their own life, then the world will change. Three, if you don't want to wait for death, disease, divorce, or redundancy to force you to choose. But are a bit apprehensive of change. Start small It's pretty last season. Every episode, I'll give you a challenge to help you on your own journey out of a nine to five job. This week's challenge work-life balance Privately ask yourself, honestly, what type of person do I want to be? What type of life do I want to lead? What type of legacy do I want to leave Then ask. What type of person am I? What type of life am I leading? What type of legacy will I leave? If I carry on this way? Identify if there is a gap between those two things and finally ask yourself, am I going to do anything about the gap? As Nigel says, decide don't slide. And remember if you want to do anything about the gap, but are scared of. Start small, even if it's just one small thing a month over time, you will head in the right direction. So this week, figure out your own work-life balance I'm your host, Steve early. And thanks for listening to escape the nine to five. If you'd like help on your own career journey, be sure to join our Facebook group escape, the nine to five. There you'll meet a group of like-minded professionals on their own journey out of the nine to five job This week, we're talking about ways to make small changes towards creating your own ideal work-life balance, whatever that may look like. The link to the group is in the show notes.